Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Down Again

After coming back to life on the 13th of May, Plastic was up for ten straight days. Since yesterday, the 23th of May, Plastic is down again. Thus this blog, which lives in a kind of reverse symbiosis with Plastic, has been resurrected. This time, the situation is apparently even worse than previously, because now even the irc server seems to be down. Since that is the only well known gathering place for Plasticians, it seems unlikely that many of them will find each other, and receive updates about the outage, at all. Some have taken the discussion to Wikipedia, but the average user is unlikely to think of this.

During the previous outage, a meta discussion about the outage received more than 200 posts, most of them essentially saying something like "Carl doesn't owe you anything, and it's back anyway. Stop whining. If you wanted to find out what was going on, you could have just gone to the chat." It remains to be seen whether this will be the prevailing attitude when Plastic comes back up this time as well.

It might also be worth remarking that users with karma less than 35 have still seen no discussion on Plastic regarding the previous outage, since there was a karma threshold even for viewing the last meta thread. If they haven't been to the irc server, it most likely remains a complete mystery for them, and now they are getting screwed again. It is quite possible that following this outage, only the frequent posters will remain faithful to the site.

If anyone has a word from Carl or any other news about what is going on this time, please post in the comment section.

69 Comments:

Blogger Gemini said...

This looks very bad. Everything is down, even freedonia (Carl's blog home). I fear for Plastic's ever coming back.

I am a Plastician of high enough karma to see meta posts, and I think it was absolutely wrong that people below 35 could not even see the thread about the outage. The attitude of the subQ voters to a proposed second sub that everyone else COULD see -- "I got mine, fuck the rest of you" -- just seemed so.... so.... Libertarian... and wrong.

Maybe Plastic shouldn't come back. I would miss it badly, but there seems no cure for its ills. Carl is no Dr. House. That is, he IS grouchy and hides from patients... but seems to be a crap diagnostician!

4:26 AM

 
Blogger Standeck said...

Hmmph. Maybe the pissing and moaning in the meta-sub convinced Carl to cut and run!

I too would miss Plastic if it went away. I wouldn't miss mod-stalking and whiny little bitch fests between long time posters who have nothing to add to the discussion but can't resist having the last word.

"Can Plastic Be Saved? Only Time Will Tell™"

6:40 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was hoping everyone would go with anonymous as their name, but alas, vanity wins.

Anyhow. There was talk of domestic strife in carl land near the end of the last outage, perhaps the Mrs. cut off the sugar mama goodness.

Of course, there was also talk of how nuts (by that I mean clinically Nuts®) carl is, so anything could be anything. Like the kids on the final episode of St. Elsewhere, carl may have tired of watching the snow fall.

6:40 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am Plastician of high enough karma to see meta posts, vote in the Q, and generally post whatever I want on Plastic without fear of losing either privilege, and I think that people below 35 karma don't contribute enough to the site to whine about not seeing a met-story about Plastic's outage. Heck, most of them probably didn't even NOTICE Plastic was down. The attitude of the subQ voters was largely engendered by the attitude of the folks who whined incessantly for the meta-story in the first place-- the same folks who essentially hijacked the first sub in order to post anonymous attacks on prominent Plasticians and generally act like spoiled babies who'd had their rattles taken away.

Well, now here we are. No Plastic.

Is it another DDOS, or did Carl finally get tired of having to single-handedly maintain a site the allure of which had largely faded due to the continual bickering of folks who apparently felt that they weren't "respected" enough by Carl? Time will tell, but in the meantime maybe those of you complaining could actually contemplate whether you ever added any value to the discussions in the first place.

And if it turns out that Carl finally got irked enough at your tantrums to pull the plug-- you got what you deserved. Too bad you had to take down the rest of us with you.

For the record, I'd vote against discussing THIS outage, as well, if Plastic comes back online. If you want to ensure no outages, contact Carl directly, and purchase the site from him. Then you can make it perfect.

8:06 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really hope it comes back. Its a fun site and is usually very interesting.
But.
The amount of bitching that went on when the site came back was unbelievable. lots of people with multiple usernames attacking each other. Sometimes I think entire threads are just two or three people with different alts giving each other grief.
If I was Carl I would have just pulled the plug after reading the meta post.
I hope it returns though.

8:27 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AI of 8:06am: I hope this is satire. Otherwise, YOU ARE WHAT'S WRONG WITH PLASTIC!! Elitism, disrespect and carl-worship. Piss off.

8:39 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm really curious as to what Plastic's "ills" are that there seem to be no cures for-- lack of civility? Look in a mirror, all you can fix is you. Downtime? This spring is the first time in five years that Plastic has had significant "unexplained" downtime. Carl's lack of communication? Maybe he just doesn't like to talk to folks, or maybe he doesn't want to get pulled into multiple discussions about how he could "fix" the site, when there's nothing particularly wrong with it. His inscrutableness (for lack of a better term)/grouchiness? Carl is dots on a screen-- if you can't fix someone you have a relationship with, how do you expect to fix someone who is only virtually represented, and of whom you essentially know nothing?

Face it, you either love Plastic for the discussions, or you go find somewhere else to work out your "issues". Miring Plastic in interminable demands for meta-stories, and all the anonymous sniping about how much Plastic sucks, or how much certain Plasticians "suck the life" out of the site, results in nothing except the result of making Plastic no longer a site worth spending time reading.

For my money, if Carl really has pulled the plug, you can lay the blame at the feet of folks like GreenPolicy, thefadd, and Acefantastik, whose gaming of the system with multiple handles and transparent resort to AI posting for flametastic bile-fests has made the forum particularly nasty, trollish, and no fun to visit.

Way to go, guys.

8:44 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Elitism, disrespect, and carl worship"... Because those things make other people TOTALLY INCAPABLE of carrying on rational discussions about the posted topics. You're a regular one note song.

Get over yourself.

8:47 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear "YOU ARE WHAT'S WRONG WITH PLASTIC",

I sincerely hope your own post was satire. But I fear it wasn't.

Can't you control yourself?

8:51 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that people below 35 karma don't contribute enough to the site to whine about not seeing a met-story about Plastic's outage.

If you post one comment every day, and one third of them are modded up by one person (a pretty conservative estimate since most comments aren't moderated at all), it takes more than three months of postings every single day to gain more than 35 karma. And here you are, claiming that people who haven't put in that kind of effort somehow don't "deserve" to read about the outage. This is indeed what's wrong with Plastic.

Why the hell should it be something to deserve anyway? All other discussions on Plastic are open to everyone, why not this one? Can you at least give a coherent reason?

And if it turns out that Carl finally got irked enough at your tantrums to pull the plug-- you got what you deserved. Too bad you had to take down the rest of us with you.

It would be so easy for Carl to just post a single post saying what happened and what he did about it. He doesn't. Why can't we complain about that? Please explain.

To be frank, I'm happy if Plastic never comes back up. It had become a detestable inbreeding ground where no new members ever join (surprise, surprise) and where the benevolent dictator was too eager to appear like some kind of cult figure to actually communicate with the members of his community. Plastic has been slowly, and recently more rapidly, decaying for several years now. Better just flush the whole site down the toilet and start afresh.

You think you'll miss it, but you really won't.

9:33 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm really curious as to what Plastic's "ills" are that there seem to be no cures for-- lack of civility? Look in a mirror, all you can fix is you.

Yeah, well, that's kind of the problem. You can only fix yourself. Unfortunately, that's not the only thing that needs fixing.

Downtime? This spring is the first time in five years that Plastic has had significant "unexplained" downtime.

That's patently false. There have been outages that lasted for days several time in the past. And even if it hasn't, you have to realize that downtime of this magnitude is pretty much unheard of for any largely visited site.

Carl's lack of communication? Maybe he just doesn't like to talk to folks

Yeah, that must be it. After all, he is only a journalist and someone who of his own free will became the sole maintainer of a 10,000+ member discussion board. That's the kind of things people who don't like communicating with people like to do, right?

Carl is dots on a screen-- if you can't fix someone you have a relationship with, how do you expect to fix someone who is only virtually represented, and of whom you essentially know nothing?

Nobody cares about Carl the person. What people care about is Plastic -- where it's going, why it's down, how it's supported, etc. We can't even get some kind of information after two weeks of downtime. This is a Carl issue only to the extent that Carl sits on all information about what Plastic's problems are etc. and refuses to share.

For my money, if Carl really has pulled the plug, you can lay the blame at the feet of folks like GreenPolicy, thefadd, and Acefantastik, whose gaming of the system with multiple handles and transparent resort to AI posting for flametastic bile-fests has made the forum particularly nasty, trollish, and no fun to visit.

Those people are not doing a very good job of making Plastic a nice place, but if Carl has indeed pulled the plug, no one is to blame but Carl. He hasn't said anything about anything despite pleas for him to do so over several years by his whole community. If Carl doesn't like the behavior of people on his site, he can just say so. With all the worshipping going on there I'm sure it would have a pretty obvious effect. If he needs money, again, he could just say so. There's nothing more annoying than simply being ignored. Well, that's what Carl does, and he does it intentionally. He has somehow managed to alienate large part of a community message board which he runs without ads and without fees. That's a pretty impressive feat.

If he wants to take it down, he can. I'm not going to cry for it. At the same time, I'm not going to think he treated this like an adult. Frankly, I just think he seems like a huge asshole the more I hear or don't hear about him.

9:45 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The threshold to see meta-stories (and that goes for ANY meta-story, not just the most recent one) is not 50. Is not 35. Is not 14-21.

It's five karma. FIVE.

And that's by order of Carl.

---a former editor.

9:49 AM

 
Anonymous MrFadedGlory said...

I'm a plastic editor. I post as MrFadedGlory on the website, and am Michael (Plastic) as an editor.

I spoke with carl in Chat after the site came up after the most recent outage. Carl mentioned that he may have to take the site down again in a week or so, that he might do some further patches and upgrades.

At the time he said that he would post a comment on the front page, a luttle before the outage. That was before the bitchfest of the meta sub. I have no doubt that after the snarking and sniping in the thread, he probably figured 2 things out:

1. The people who 'get plastic' don't need to be told it's down.
2. The others aren't worth his throuble

I would have liked for Carl to post something, but I totally understand why he didn't. Blogs like this confirm my theory.

For the record, the karma limit on the meta thread was 22, not 35. In the last year or so, we editors have been trusted to determine the appropriate karma level for meta discussion purposes. These levels range from 5 to 50. Any gripe with the karma setting should be directed to the editor who posted the story

I currently have 601 karma points. I amassed about 100 of those in the first 3 months of posting. Not because I was commenting lots, but because I was subbing. An accepted sub will gain you between 3 and 5 karma points.

The fastest way to rack up karma is to write decent subs. If you just plan on commenting a couple of times, of course it will take a while to get to the 50 mark where you can vote in the queue. I think this is as it should be. Because karma is awarded based on participation, not time of viewing, it is entirely reasonable that meta threads be karma limited. You need to know of what you speak before you can give back to the community in a positive manner.

I'll end by saying that all of the above is my opinion and in no way represents the views of carl or the other editors or any of the users of Plastic. This is simply me, spending my valuable time trying to let you know what a tool you are.

Have a nice day.

~Faded

10:35 AM

 
Blogger ccreitz said...

Plastic sports a large number of old 'net hands (I count myself among that number), gemini, whose attitude is not so much "I got mine, so fuck you" as "If you want some, please feel free to go get it." This is a realistic attitude to have in a low-entry-cost, knowledge-intensive "place" like the net - and if it still feels like a libertarian mindset, well, that might be because there are an awful lot of libertarians among the first generation of Internet cognoscenti.

By the way, I strongly recommend discontinuing the use of "libertarian" as a synonym for "callous". Persons of a more authoritarian bent - fascists, say - have been known to be callous, and a wide swath from among libertarians (i.e. the old IWW) make concern for their fellow beings a political issue, and even consider certain elements of that concern a reasonable function for government.

12:27 PM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

Thanks for the info, MrFG. I think that pretty much says it in a nutshell. Whether the limit on the meta-discussion was 5, 22, 35, or 50, the limit has the same purpose-- to restrict the ability to bitch to those people who are actively contributing to the site. And as opposed to "anonymous", there, who claims that it takes 3 months of sheer dedication to wrack up 35 points; it doesn't take that much effort. I've had periods at Plastic where I've gotten thirty five points in a week with a few well-received writeups and some thoughtful commentary. So it doesn't seem like a particularly high bar to cross, unless you just have an axe to grind. With the limit at 22 on this particular meta, a new user would've hit that bar by getting two decent offbeat stories posted, combined with about 4 or 5 well-thought out, well received posts.

Likewise, anonymous is absolutely correct that Carl could post a comment going into detail about what happened and what he did to fix it, but "so what?" that he didn't. Exactly how will all these meta-comments about how big an asshole he is force his hand? Answer: they won't. So what's the point?

Let me turn it around on you, oh anonymous one-- exactly what is the purpose of the meta-story beyond simply allowing hot-headed miscreants to malign their fellow posters for not agreeing that Carl is the biggest asshole since W? What can you hope to actually accomplish with a story like that? And, honestly, tell us all how you're not one of the folks that simply trolled the long-time contributors who gave their opinion of the matter-- if you can. Personally I wouldn't believe you even if you said it.

Multiple downtimes for Plastic? That I can recall (and I've been posting on Plastic since shortly after it went online, Plastics been down all of about 3-4 times in 5+ years. Yes, this has been the longest/most frustrating period in which it's been down; but the bottom line is that Plastic is up roughly 98% of the time. So the histrionics about its demise seem rather unwarranted.

As far as getting information about where Plastic is going, have you ever asked Carl? Why it's down seems pretty obvious-- even before MrFG posted his anecdote about Carl saying he'd need to take it down in the near future to fix some stuff, I suspected this outage was simply the result of unfinished cleanup from the last outage-- if you hadn't noticed, response time on Plastic and plastic.chat seemed pretty spotty post-outage. How is it supported? you mean aside from the common knowledge that it's supported by donations? Why would you need to know anything more? Does knowledge of Plastic's means of support affect how often and what you post on Plastic? Are you thinking about buying the site? Or are you just curious?

So, yes. Carl's ignored the community he helped build when factions of it have demanded answers from him. This may mean that he's an asshole. But again, so what? Is he required by law to give you the forum from which to call him an asshole?

To be perfectly frank, those of you who say "I'm happy if Plastic never comes back up" should simply leave. You're not wanted, and you're not contributing anything but flames to the site. Why are you even bothering? Do yourselves and the rest of us a favor by NOT coming back to Plastic when it's back up. You'll quite obviously be happier not dealing with the hassles of the 2-3% downtime/year, and the rest of us will feel more comfortable without you all irrelevantly throwing comments about Mayorbob, miss_sue, et al into every frickin' story.

If Plastic has deteriorated over the course of the last year or two, I think you can pretty clearly point the finger at you lot who keep hijacking every article with your flamewars and cries of "Plastic suxxors!!"

I said it in the meta-story, I'm saying it here, and I'll repeat the sentiment if Plastic runs another meta-story about THIS outage: you want to have a discussion, great; but if your sole contribution is that Plastic sucks/Carl's an ass, then offer him $40,000 for it, fix it up how you like, and shut your pie hole. Quit dragging everyone else's ass down with your complaining.

12:39 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a Plastic user and a friend of Carl's wife and she told me he's sick of people like Mayor Slobs karmawhoring so he's pulling the plug on the whole damn thing.

1:23 PM

 
Anonymous Adipic Acid said...

Nice try, troll.

2:00 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Filler 01.17.01



PAPER OR PLASTIC?

Dear POLLY ESTHER,

Plastic is a new model for news. Somewhere between anarchy and hierarchy, Plastic is designed to be a live collaboration between the web's smartest readers and the web's smartest editors, with everyone working together to find and discuss the most worthwhile news, opinions, rumors, humor and anecdotes online. Drawing from the best material posted to our sections by editors from sites like Spin, Modern Humorist, and Inside, Plastic homepage editors Joey Anuff and Tom Dowe give you a summary view of what Plastic is talking about at any given moment. Without your contributions, that won't be much. So next time you run across something worth sharing, keep Plastic in the loop.

Plastic Editors
Plastic.com

2:11 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iarnocoun,

With the limit at 22 on this particular meta, a new user would've hit that bar by getting two decent offbeat stories posted, combined with about 4 or 5 well-thought out, well received posts.

I guess the point is that nobody predicted the outage. Nobody thought "oh boy, I better hurry up and gain some karma in case the site goes down, because if it does and I don't have at least 22 I'm never going to find out why" and for that reason they were left in the dark, and still are. I think it's peculiar that you and others think this is OK. This was clearly a story of interest to everybody who reads Plastic.

Likewise, anonymous is absolutely correct that Carl could post a comment going into detail about what happened and what he did to fix it, but "so what?" that he didn't.

Nobody said he had to go into detail about it. A three line comment would be enough, if for nothing else just to show us that he's alive and not completely uncaring about the several thousands users of his site who care about.

What I don't get is why you think this is too much to ask for. Are you saying that it isn't too much to ask for, it's just that telling Carl so to his face is not going to help? If so, then I guess I agree with you: it's not going to help. If nothing else, that much has become clear by now. But that doesn't mean it isn't true and that I can't say so here.

So, yes. Carl's ignored the community he helped build when factions of it have demanded answers from him. This may mean that he's an asshole. But again, so what? Is he required by law to give you the forum from which to call him an asshole?

Again, see above. No, he's not required by law. Is Israel and Palestine forced by law to implement the solution you propose in Random Plastic Thread #1654? If not, then why propose it? Presumably, you just want to speak what's on your mind. It's the same thing here. If I think Carl is treating this thing poorly, I can say so. It doesn't mean anybody has some kind of legal obligations all of a sudden. It means just what I say -- that I think he treated it poorly. There's no need to think it's going to have any immediate consequences.

Let me turn it around on you, oh anonymous one-- exactly what is the purpose of the meta-story beyond simply allowing hot-headed miscreants to malign their fellow posters for not agreeing that Carl is the biggest asshole since W?

The purpose is to let Plastic's whole readership learn that a) there was an outage, b) what Carl has said caused it, and c) to provide an outlet for discussions of how to prevent it in the future. The thread might have been largely devoted to other things, but it at least fulfilled those purposes, and that's enough to motivate it.

You'll quite obviously be happier not dealing with the hassles of the 2-3% downtime/year, and the rest of us will feel more comfortable without you all irrelevantly throwing comments about Mayorbob, miss_sue, et al into every frickin' story.

Now you're making unreasonable assumptions. I am not one of those trolls. There's a world of difference between being unhappy how Carl the community that is dependent on him and being a sociopathic stalker. I suspect the people who post comments about "Ms Sue's cunt" and "Mayor Boob" have problems that extend far Plastic's problem with downtime.

If Plastic has deteriorated over the course of the last year or two, I think you can pretty clearly point the finger at you lot who keep hijacking every article with your flamewars and cries of "Plastic suxxors!!"

Plastic have deteriorated for lots of reasons. I'm not sure that's one, because I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. Hijacking every article with cries of Plastic suxxors? I haven't seen it. I have seen some serious stalking, though. But that's something else.

Quit dragging everyone else's ass down with your complaining.

Some complaints are more legitimate than others, IMO. Those one should be able to express without fear of being insulted by people like you. If you don't like the meta stories, just stay away from them. It's that simple. Going there and posting comments whining about everybody else's whining is not only pointless, it's also, well, bizarre.

2:31 PM

 
Blogger Gemini said...

People are allowed to have an opinion, imagine that! Just because someone expresses an opinion about Plastic does not make them one of the hideously behaved AIs that spewed their venom in the meta thread. I did no such thing, thanks very much. The ills I refer to are the needless nastiness, the ridiculous multiple signons, and not least, the neglect of the site by its absentee landlord, who if you might recall has asked us for money more than once to keep the roof over all our heads. Now look -- no roof! Not even the outhouse of Chat.

2:54 PM

 
Anonymous gerrymander said...

I have little to add, save that as of Wednesday afternoon on May 24th, pings and tracerts of plastic.com's listed WHOIS addresses are returned without response, but the freedonia.com page is still up. Take that as you will.

Also, 1fastdog's new music exchange mix rocks.

That is all.

3:01 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If freedonia is up and plastic and plastic chat are down, the best bet is carl is working on the servers...or he completely gave up the site. Time will tell.

3:07 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

chat.plastic.com is up, with the following topic:

Plastic is working fine... YOU have been blocked

Take it as you will.

-- CaptainLiberal

3:10 PM

 
Anonymous bokeh said...

#plastic is back up.

3:14 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, chat is back up but the IRC logs from chat are very disturbing. Let's just hope that carl is working on the servers and hasn't pulled the plug.

5:18 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suspect the people posting about how "ms_sue's cunt stinks" and what a "revolting ass-faced horror" ms_sue is, aren't Carl's gripe. After all, he gives us all the power to block anyone and our mission is to make of plastic what you will.

No, I think Carl's gripes are with the old-timers who will see that any disagreements are downmodded and new users are ridiculed as newbies, driving them away. The most prolific old-timers are snarky grouches and hold up topical stories in the queue, spoiling it for everyone.

4:13 AM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

I don't think that asking for an explanation is too much; I think that no explanation (no coherent explanation, mind you) will ever be forthcoming. So, once again, what's the purpose of such a meta-story? To allow people to vent? To allow the AIs to make comments about miss_sue? To let all the newbies have an inside view of the really NASTY side of Plastic; the side that is completely uncivil, inharmonious, and psychotic, all collected in one place?

If Plastic's whole readership isn't aware that there is an outage, then the chances are that those who DON'T know aren't going to gain much by the meta, and those who DO know don't need the meta to inform them. Points b) and c) are linked: there's absolutely nothing you can do to prevent Carl from taking down the site at a whim, and so there really isn't any point in asking what caused it, even if you were assured that carl would give some sort of (typically) cryptic answer. Is your assumption that Carl would give you the truth? And if he didn't, exactly what would you do about it? And if he did, exactly what could you do to "prevent it" from happening in the future? "Prevention" is pretty much an illusion.

We agree that the stalkers have some basic and serious problems. I don't care on way or the other if you are or aren't one of the trolls. My point is that trollish behavior is what drags Plastic down, not Mayorbob's contributions to the site, or miss_sue's opinions, or my own oftentimes soapbox-like diatribes. We all have our pet peeves, and we often repeat our opinions about events-- so what? We can disagree about those things. But the name-calling is intentionally hurtful and purposeless. It just another effort to drive posters FROM Plastic. Those engaging in it are little better than censors, if less effective. And meta-stories, in my experience, always devolve into name-calling. And if you haven't seen the myriad AI cries of "Plastic sucks!" you haven't been looking. And it's largely driven by a minority that don't like the community's editorial decisions. "Why did my trenchant story on ass-warts not get posted!? The CABAL is keeping me DOWN!"

So, we should be able to express our opinions without being insulted? Rockin'! I reserve my right to express the opinion that meta-stories are useless shit without then being told to shut up. I don't like meta stories, and I will always vote them down. And I will always seek to convince other people to vote them down. By your own standards, my complaints deserve an airing, so pardon me if I don't take your advice to simply ignore proposed metas.

And, Gemini, I think you're squawking at a stone that wasn't thrown at you. I don't recall mentioning your name.

The point is, shit happens. You can demand as many explanations as you like, but ultimately you nor anyone else posting on Plastic has or ever will have any control whatsoever about how the hardware issues of Plastic are administered. (If it ever turns out that I'm wrong, you can fully demand and expect an apology, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that proof.)

7:28 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Iarnoucon, Carl has said there was a problem with the firewall. Earlier we thought it was a DoS. Even earlier than that people thought the site may have been taken down for good.

IIRC, you were in the chat, and you too were interested in hearing about these things. And you are also here now. QED.

8:07 AM

 
Anonymous gerrymander said...

Hey, man, I put a lot of effort into that ass warts story. ;-)

8:50 AM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

Anonymous, which reason given was the right one? Why is the site down now? Why didn't the last meta story about an outage prevent the current "problem"?

If the site's taken down for good (which I doubt), potential meta-stories about the outage are moot. If the site's back up, discussions about why the site was down (given Carl's refusal to speak) are fruitless speculation. If nobody but Carl has the ability to impact whether the site is up or down, "prevention planning" is ultimately useless.

So, again, what exactly is accomplished by "discussion" of the outage in a meta-story?

As Dane Cook said, "officer, I'd be happy to testify-- I was in the kitchen cleaning a dish; I heard the accident, and I came OUT. I will bring the dish as exhibit A. Tell him what you told me, tell him what you told me-- that's not what he told me. You're lying, that's not what he told me."

If anyone has any USEFUL information, that's great- share it. Here or chat is as good as anywhere. But the drawbacks of a meta-story, IMO, far outweigh any benefit to be derived (which, near as I can tell, consists solely of satisfying a few folks' curiosity).

And, gerrymander? Sorry about the ass-warts story, man. I totally gave it a +1 vote.

9:34 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Satisfying people's curiosity is enough. The default for a discussion board of this kind must be that if enough people want to discuss something, they can. It's easier for those who don't want to discuss to just stay away from a running thread (which you hardly did in the last one, despite your repeated assertions of not being interested in participating in a meta story) than it is for those who want to discuss to visit a non-existent one.

Besides, yes, things were accomplished. People found out about the firewall problem, and most of them believe that to be the correct reason. If you don't, and think you're just as clueless now as before you had any info at all, fine. But let others make up their own minds of what to think. Nobody elected you to think for us all.

Furthermore, this whole thing is really quite ridiculous. You continue to claim that you don't want to discuss Plastic, and yet you've been one of the loudest voices -- you were in the chat, you posted long comments in the meta that run, you had opinions on all the metas that didn't run, and now you are here -- on a blog solely devoted to discussing meta issues -- too. You have to see the irony in that. If you don't want anything to do with meta discussions then just stay the hell away. I don't think anybody wants you here anyway, since all you ever say is that discussing this is a waste of time.

9:52 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also, 1fastdog's new music exchange mix rocks.

I'd like to second that. And, if plastic doesn't come back I'd like to apologize to the people whose addresses are trapped in the limbo that is plastic mail, and who will never receive a mix CD from me (unless they got my address, and are sending me something with a return address on it).

10:06 AM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

Besides, yes, things were accomplished. People found out about the firewall problem, and most of them believe that to be the correct reason. If you don't, and think you're just as clueless now as before you had any info at all, fine. But let others make up their own minds of what to think. Nobody elected you to think for us all.

And with this "knowledge", you've accomplished... what, exactly? I don't mind discussing Plastic, I mind the idea that "a meta-story about the plastic outage will fix everything!" That sentiment is complete bullshit.

For what it's worth, the "Carl" who claimed Plastic would be taken down for good seemed more bogus than a three dollar bill. I'd expect Plastic to be up sometime within the next few days... but we'll see.

12:12 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And with this "knowledge", you've accomplished... what, exactly?

What is this obsession about accomplishing some directly observable practical change? Do any of Plastic's threads accomplish such things? People should be allowed to discuss whatever they want to without you imposing your arbitrary metric of what's a worthwhile way to spend one's time on them.

If people think it's nice to know that Plastic's firewall is bunk, then a story about that has accomplished something. End of discussion!

I don't mind discussing Plastic, I mind the idea that "a meta-story about the plastic outage will fix everything!" That sentiment is complete bullshit.

Nice strawman. Nobody said it will "fix everything". All people were saying is that they wanted a meta story to run, something you continue to argue against, more incoherently for every post.

For what it's worth, the "Carl" who claimed Plastic would be taken down for good seemed more bogus than a three dollar bill. I'd expect Plastic to be up sometime within the next few days... but we'll see.

Yeah, we'll see.

12:40 PM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

Nobody cares about Carl the person. What people care about is Plastic -- where it's going, why it's down, how it's supported, etc. We can't even get some kind of information after two weeks of downtime. This is a Carl issue only to the extent that Carl sits on all information about what Plastic's problems are etc. and refuses to share... If he needs money, again, he could just say so. There's nothing more annoying than simply being ignored... It would be so easy for Carl to just post a single post saying what happened and what he did about it. He doesn't. Why can't we complain about that?... The purpose is to let Plastic's whole readership learn that a) there was an outage, b) what Carl has said caused it, and c) to provide an outlet for discussions of how to prevent it in the future... yes, things were accomplished.

And of course, if Plastic were up, I could quote chapter and verse from the meta about how everyone is going to use the meta to "fix" Plastic's problems.

Nothing of the sort will happen.

You can discuss it all you want, and as you note, I have been myself. The difference between myself and those to whom my posts here are addressed is that I don't have any illusions about the "impact" such a meta has had-- you think the "knowledge" that Plastic is down is somehow valuable, but it's free. You go to Plastic and you get nothing. Everything else is pretty much speculation except for what carl himself has said (as he's the only person who is really in the know) and his comments are unreliable, at best.

If we were going to have a meta-story, it would better have been a meta about what to do about the anonymous asshats who keep hijacking threads to maintain their vendetta against people whom they don't like. If the community came to an agreement as to how to handle those folks' posts, THAT would be something accomplished. As is, the meta story we got and will likely have again didn't do anything except to provide a forum for those beeyotches, and serve as an example to relative newbies that you shouldn't post your opinion on Plastic.

And in case you haven't noticed, I'm incapable of "imposing" my metric on anyone. I, like you, am merely exercising my right to have an opinion-- one that's the opposite of yours, but certainly no less soundly expressed. What you argue for is no less an arbitrary metric.

1:00 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The arrogance of some plastic old-timers is truly astounding -"I can rack up 35 points in less than a week" - well, good for you, asshole.

I wonder how many plastic accounts are actually active? 100? 200? 500?

1:05 PM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

It's not arrogance, anonymous, merely a statement of fact. The "bar" on the meta was set pretty low.

As for the other point, ask Carl.

1:13 PM

 
Blogger Anonymous Idiot said...

And in case you haven't noticed, I'm incapable of "imposing" my metric on anyone. I, like you, am merely exercising my right to have an opinion-- one that's the opposite of yours, but certainly no less soundly expressed. What you argue for is no less an arbitrary metric.

I think the point that people are trying make is that your opinion is basically that nobody else should be allowed theirs (since you want to vote down all the metas). It's the equivalent of using your democratic right to vote for a candidate who proposes a dictatorship.

2:09 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As for the other point, ask Carl.
lol

3:50 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As for the other point, ask Carl.
lol


lol at your lol. Those three letters summed up the whole Plastic situation pretty good.

5:31 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not arrogance, anonymous, merely a statement of fact. The "bar" on the meta was set pretty low.

'Tis arrogance if you expect that anyone can rack up points as quickly as you can.

I suspect that plastic traffic has dropped as the arrogance of the few has increased.

It seems fitting that plastic should die accompanied by the smell of one of iarnuocon's farts.

8:49 PM

 
Anonymous 1fastdog said...

I'd like to apologize to the people whose addresses are trapped in the limbo that is plastic mail, and who will never receive a mix CD from me (unless they got my address, and are sending me something with a return address on it).

Figured I'd better address this in case anyone else is having similar concerns. Anybody in the Plastic music exchange who's forgotten/lost/can't retrieve their partners snail mail addy, can drop me a line over at plasticmusicexchange@gmail.com and lemme know. I can probably hook you up with the address (snail or electronic) or at least make contact with your partner for you.
If Plastic is indeed in the crapper permanently, we'll find another place to discuss the exchange - perhaps at my blog page, perhaps somewhere else, but we WILL discuss it eventually. If anyone else has any other questions concerning the exchange, shoot me a line and I'll do my best to answer 'em.

10:22 AM

 
Anonymous iarnuocon said...

Yeah, anonymous, you're totally right. My "arrogance" caused Plastic traffic to die off. And my single vote against metas surely means that Plastic is the land of fascist dictatorships.

Behold the mighty power that is iarnuocon! All ye mighty, look upon my works and despair!

I find it ironic that the only opinion that you'd allow is the opinion that metas should always be posted, but anyone disagreeing that they should is saying that "nobody else should be allowed an opinion." You don't own any mirrors, do you?

You go ahead and continue to have your poorly argued opinion, and I'll continue to have mine.

9:43 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

iarnuocon,

You magnificent bastard you!

3:52 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Tis arrogance if you expect that anyone can rack up points as quickly as you can.


What collosal arrogance, to think that he is no better than anyone else! What hubris! The gods will lay this pipsqueak low for underestimating his own mad power!

11:13 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some members of the cabal continue ad nauseum about why they are the only ones worthy to know what's going on. The god complexes are not just those we jokingly assign to carl.

Without plastic, the cabal (some not all) are just a bunch of _________ (anything you want insert is appropriate here.)

7:10 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would somebody please identify the members of the cabal? I often hear references to this, yet I have yet to see the usual suspects named.

8:47 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The members of the cabal have never been identified because the cabal does not exist. It is merely a rhetorical device that gets invoked by plasticians under a variety of circumstances when they are angry that not everyone shares their opinion on whatever topic is currently being discussed.

12:31 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would somebody please identify the members of the cabal? I often hear references to this, yet I have yet to see the usual suspects named.

The Plastic cabal generally applies to these categories of people:

a) people whose comments in the SubQ are not helpful tips for the sub, but rather off-topic rants, random non-sequiters, jokes about different subs, attacks on other posters, etc.

b) people who remember the names and comments of long departed members such as Ash Poopem.

c) people who are overly concerned with other posters' behavior.

d) people who talk about suck.com writers as if they personally know them.

e) generally anyone who has a knowledge of Plastic's inside jokes.

Using these paramaters, most (but not all) Plasticians who have 50+ karma are in the cabal, regardless of their personal feelings towards each other. For instance, suckerpunch and daniel duffy won't be spotted taking lunch together, but they are both cabalistas. iarnoucon is in the cabal, along with that guy he doesn't like. And so on. Hell, the fact that you are posting here puts you in the cabal. me too.

1:25 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The members of the plastic cabal are an exclusive group who exist under a nebulous power structure -- generally comprised of a leader (or a few leaders), followers and pariahs.

The resulting self-appeal is perpetuated by the display a close association (implied or real) with each other, a key aspect of which is publically excluding the undesirables.

Oh wait -- that's the definition of a fifth grade girls' clique.

Meh - same thing.

1:34 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Cabal is a showdy underworld network that controls all of the affairs of daily life, the most important of which is approving the submission of new stories to Plastic in the SubQ. This is usually accomplished through the suggestion of "clever" headlines, snippy partisanship, and the ability to lob spitballs at opponents after they've rated a story and can therefore not fight back. Care should be taken to minimize the subQ infighting and childish insults, except when it's directed against Green Policy, because he's a dick.

1:47 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a) people whose comments in the SubQ are not helpful tips for the sub, but rather off-topic rants, random non-sequiters, jokes about different subs, attacks on other posters, etc.

b) people who remember the names and comments of long departed members such as Ash Poopem.

c) people who are overly concerned with other posters' behavior.

d) people who talk about suck.com writers as if they personally know them.

e) generally anyone who has a knowledge of Plastic's inside jokes.


Funny, most of those criteria (save for d and perhaps a, b) seem to apply to the AIs who whine about the cabal as well.

That said, there really is some serious, and quite bizarre, things going on behind the scenes of Plastic. This blog has made that abundantly clear, if nothing else.

2:03 PM

 
Anonymous tomc said...

That said, there really is some serious, and quite bizarre, things going on behind the scenes of Plastic. This blog has made that abundantly clear, if nothing else.

How do you figure?

2:37 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just want to point out that even the possibility of a spoofed carl is yet another example of the real carl's inability to accept established standards because he can't abide the notion that there are people smarter than himself, and furthermore exhibits a pathological disregard for the users he's putatively serving. Thus in #plastic we get no nickserv, but we do get a retarded bot that pukes up unsolicited information at every turn. /away doesn't work because it interferes with the hideously pointless /snub. You can block AIs or specific users but you still have to see all the responses to them, most of which helpfully quote the blocked post in its entirety, thereby obviating the whole point of blocking. Etc etc ad infinitum. I wound up leaving plastic not so much because of cabal troll bullshit, but because I'm not at all comfortable with being part of a community reliant entirely upon the whims of a fucking mental case -- and an unentertaining one at that.

2:02 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wound up leaving plastic not so much because of cabal troll bullshit, but because I'm not at all comfortable with being part of a community...

You left? Seems to me you are still here.

...reliant entirely upon the whims of a fucking mental case -- and an unentertaining one at that.

If you believe that, then that is a good reason to go. Always a pleasure.

4:32 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For my money, if Carl really has pulled the plug, you can lay the blame at the feet of folks like GreenPolicy, thefadd, and Acefantastik, whose gaming of the system with multiple handles and transparent resort to AI posting for flametastic bile-fests has made the forum particularly nasty, trollish, and no fun to visit.


You forgot to post that you love Ohio State there, Brent.

5:34 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, shit. I did, didn't I?

Go Bucks!

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Bush and the Republicans were not protecting us on 9-11, and we aren't a lot safer now. We may be more afraid due to george bush, but are we safer? Being fearful does not necessarily make one safer. Fear can cause people to hide and cower. What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.
Are we safer today than we were before?
The more people that the government puts in jails, the safer we are told to think we are. The real terrorists are wherever they are, but they aren't living in a country with bars on the windows. We are.

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